38 COMMENTS

  1. While I realize reputation goes a long way in rankings, I would like to submit a short point. Waynesburg University, which admittedly has been on life support coming into this season, is currently 7-0 vs. Division III teams and 8-3 overall, including a win over Division II Seton Hill and a near victory over Division I Duquesne. They have also beaten both Messiah and York, who are consistently ranked. I only submit this statement as something for the committee to think about. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

  2. “Opinion” you make a valid statement.
    Undefeated in D3 with wins over York and Messish should be enough. D3 rankings are less bias… Andy you should do team rankings.

  3. I agree with both of your points. However, there also seems to be discrepancies in relation to individual rankings. Certain teams seem to only wrestle their ranked individuals in two situations. One being when it is absolutely necessary for the team score. The second being when they are facing an opponent who they either know they can beat, or an opponent, who if lost to, will not affect their rankings. It seems that by holding out and not wrestling against opponents who have a legitimate chance to beat them ensures that they keep their high national ranking and seed for the conference meet. I know this is usually a coaching move, but why should individuals be rewarded with continuously high rankings when coaches intentionally dodge legitimate competition?

  4. I agree with the point on individuals as well… see Waynesburg’s Nick Garber. Who is 19-1 with 16 falls, mostly in the first period. His only time away from the mat has been due to injury. While I admit wrestling at Waynesburg doesn’t afford him many opportunities to take on the nation’s ranked, he did beat York’s Kyle Flickinger by 8-1 decision at the Messiah Duals. Flickinger was in the top ten at the time of the loss. Garber’s one loss came by controversial 7-6 decision (with riding time) to Corey Brown of Thiel, who is a very good wrestler in his own right.

  5. As someone who follows the east coast scene rather closely, I agree with your assessment on the NWCA rankings. The heavyweight from McDaniel is 24-1 with his only loss being to Bilquist (current NWCA #2, DelVal) by a 6-3 score. It was 3-2 with 20 seconds left in the match. He falls from the #10 spot because of this loss?. Just an FYI, he beat Geesman (the NWCA #1) 15-5 this time last season. Now, I know that was last season, but Geesman’s ranking is strictly based on his finish at Nationals last year. Glotfelty (McDaniel) should definitely be in these rankings.

  6. Just another FYI, the heavyweight from Loras is ranked #9. He has a 7-3 overall record and a 3-2 record in DIII. How has he had enough matches or quality wins to be ranked in the top 10? Totally biased? The heavyweight from Luther is 14-8 and ranked #8. Eight losses and still in the top 10 (no matter who the losses are too)? Biased? This is just the 285 weight class, too. I am sure we could do this in a few others. Long live the D3 Rankings!

  7. Why isnt thomanison ranked at 74 hes 25-3, he just beat three national qualfiers in one week, one of which was an all-american who was ranked as high as 2nd.

  8. All this whining about the rankings misses several important points. First the competition in the midwest is greater than that in the east. The rankings should reflect a prediction as to who at the end of the season will be All-Americans. The IIAC has 33 qualifiers and currently 26 ranked wrestlers, the WIAC has 19 qaulifiers and currently 15 ranked wrestlers, the Great Lakes Region has 26 qualifiers and currently 23 ranked wrestlers, and the Midwest Region has 15 qaulifiers and nine ranked wrestlers. The NWCA rankings committee is doing a good job in predicting what will occur at the national tournament. However, they may not have all the necessary facts as there are wrestlers who duck other wrestlers. For example at the national duals the number one and two ranked wrestlers at 174 ducked Kyle Kehrli of Cornell. I can understand why Olivet and Johnson and Wales would do so. His only d3 losses are to IIAC wrestlers.

  9. @Kevin

    Rankings are not predictions and should be based on what has happened in the past, not what might happen in the future. I’d be surprised if the ranking committee members think, “how do I think this will shake out at the national tournament?” before making their selections. Those other things you mentioned (strength of schedule, activity, ect.) should play it’s part, but is ia certainly hard to drop a wrestler based upon a match that wasn’t wrestled.

  10. Kevin- It seems to me that the national qualifier system is scewed because of the belief that it is that much tougher. There are many more DIII wrestling schools in the east.If you were to switch the number of nat’l qualifiers from the midwest to to the east, you would see many more east coast All-Americans. More opportunity yields higher results. With the excpetion of the “Transfer Universities” (Wart/Aug), the top teams out of the east would comparable very favorably with the rest of the midwest schools year in and year out.

  11. Rankings are thrown out the window when we get together before the national tournament and select our seeds. So much info. is not taken into account for these rankings…..there barley even mentioned during the seeding meeting, if at all.
    The only argument you can make about the usefulness of these rankings is that it helps programs with recruiting potential student athletes.

    Coach

  12. I definitely agree on the ultimate meanings of the rankings. However, in Division III, without the assistance of scholarships, those rankings are so much more valuable when it comes to drawing in the best talent available.

  13. Not to mention if a coach sees a kids name on the rankings at some point in Jan/Feb, than that name gets tossed into the mix for seeding against a kid who hasn’t been ranked but has a better record over the course of the year. Who is going to get the benefit of the doubt?

  14. To Mandingo on your NQ philosophy. I STRONGLY disagree with the top teams competeing with the Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin teams year in and year out as far as AA’s. I can think of the average teams in the IIAC that are still better than the top teams on the east coast. This is not an opinion, it is a proven fact, proven by the results at all levels of collegiate wrestling. The Midwest is definately superior to the east coast.

  15. Tasty T you are correct, the Midwest consistently out preforms the East. Cornell travelled down the Citrus Open and Duals and won. Augsburg controlled the Sunshine Open. Wartburg, Augsburg, Delaware Valley, Coe, Concordia, and Cornell placed first through sixth at the NWCA National Duals. UW-Whitewater won the Bud Whitehill Duals. Now, I am sure the Easterners will claim that Delaware Valley is in the East. However, DVC wrestles in the Mid West region.
    I recognize the seedings occur at the national tournament. However, it makes sense to take into consideration in the rankings the likelihood of a wrestler actually qualifing for the national tournament.

  16. Testy T and Kevin(wingnuts) fail to realize that their “superior west coast wrestling” is the lop-sided result of years and years of a failed qualifying system. If you don’t agree then why has D-1 changed it’s NQ system? D-2 and D-3 will soon follow suit. New york, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey are three of the top High School wrestling states in the country. Anyone who has been around this sport long enough knows this as the numbers don’t lie. Mandingo hit the nail on the head…More opportunity does yield higher results and any clown that thinks the whole system isn’t bunk is obviously on the longer end of the stick! Have some integrity and respect for the sport by recognizing where it needs to improve or before you know it, everyones conference will only get smaller. As far as the rankings, the only ones that matter to me anymore are d3’s. The NWCA committee consists of a group of old-farts that have all been on that board way too long…rotate the committee every year for better results.

  17. very well put “agrees”. Instead of the conferences shrinking, how about making it the heads on some of these pompous west coasters! I know about the new qualifying system versus the old and I think there will be better results with the new one. In fact this entire debate is one of the primary reasons DI changed…so who is really whining Kevin?

  18. I would love to see half of these west coast boys attempt to get in to some of these east coast schools! Schools like Oneonta State in NY require a 92 average and a 1200 math and verbal for acceptance…They need the whole package when recruiting. Which is why their program is ranked in the top 25 acedemically nearly every year! I heard far more east coast teams being recognized last year for acedemics..Other schools to mention are Williams, Messiah, Oswego…great job east coast! Be quiet west coast!

  19. yeah those high scores really translate into all-american too don’t they. Didn’t Coe finish highest overall for academics and place at nationals? They were 3rd for academics and finished 4th at the tourney. That would be a school in Iowa. Thats mid-west not west coast too, I don’t know if that matters to your argument or not.

  20. Valid point anon… Any team mid west and out is in that west coast category though! However, I will also say that Coe is the model team right now and very respected. Most east coasters would love to see
    Coe win it over wart and aug! Is Coe hard to get acceptepted into?

  21. Their acceptance standards are somewhat strict and academics are really pushed, which is one reason we were happy with our son’s choice.

  22. You also fail to recognize the fact that Cornell is ranked 21st in the nation by Forbes Magazine among all national liberal arts colleges in the United States and 71st among all 4,000 colleges and universities in the United States. Also Cornell College is the only small college to win both the NCAA Division I and AAU Tournaments, is 15th overall in division III in number of NCAA post graduate scholars. So to indicate that the academics in the West suffers is incorrect. Last year they ended up 7th in the Division III tournament, so good wrestling and academics are a hallmark of the IIIAC.

  23. The last East Coast team to win the D-3 Championship was Ithaca in 1993. Since 1963 in Division-II the farthest school east of the Mississippi to win the national title was Pittsburg-Johnstown with its second of two titles coming in 1999. This is a Pennsylvania School in the Western part of the State and closer to Mid-Western competition. The school farthest east of the Mississippi to win the Division I title was Penn St. in 1953. The next furthest is Indiana. Obviously, Indiana and Penn St. cannot be called Eastern Schools as they are in the Big Ten. If the East is such a powerhouse why haven’t they been more successful? When IIAC and WIAC schools travel to the East they beat the competition.

  24. Kevin, maybe d3 and D2 there are less successful in the east coast since most west coast wrestlers gravitate to that level. Pennslyvania has produced the most national champions and D 1 all americans then any state out there…the next best state is Ohio and there not even close. There is so much talent in PA these kids go all over the place…including your west coast teams.

  25. East Coost Rep (D 1)
    That is a very interesting hypothesis, do you have facts to back it up. It made me curious, so I went to look at the rosters of five of the more successful midwest division 1 programs to see if they actually recruited heavily from Ohio and Pennsylvania.
    The University of Iowa roster indicates that it has 28 wrestlers from Iowa and none from either Pennsylvania and Ohio. There are currently wrestlers form 8 states the farthest east being Michigan.
    Iowa State University has 15 wrestlers from Iowa and seven from Illinois on its roster and none from Ohio or Pennsylvania. They do have one wrestler from each of these Eastern states: New Hampshire, New York, Conn., and New Jersey.
    Minnesota has 20 wrestlers from Minnesota and only one wrestler from Ohio and none from Pennsylvania. Minnesota has wrestlers from 14 states and only one from the east (N.J.)
    Oklahoma has 10 wrestlers from Oklahoma, 4 from Missouri, and four from Texas. They only have two wrestlers from Pennsylvania and one from Ohio. The Oklahoma roster shows 15 states have wrestlers on its team.
    Oklahoma State has 13 wrestlers from Okalhoma and while it has wrestlers from 14 states it only has one wrestler from Pennsylvania and none from Ohio. However, it does have two wrestlers from New Jersy, one from each Delaware and New York,
    A quick review of these programs tends to indicate that wrestlers from the midwest tend to be the focus of the Midwest powers.

  26. Im from the west and I even know that Highschool wrestling is the strongest in PA and Ohio..(cadet and Junior nationals has proven that) but were catching up. I looked up the stats on national champs and all-americans and East coast rep. is correct. Pennslyvania does produce the most national champs and all-americans by far then any otehr state out there…however Ohio is not second…but 4th…California is number 2. Kevin, by looking up the roster of Iowa and Iowa state doesn’t have anything to do with national champs and all-american statement that east coast rep made.

  27. Pennsylvaina had 3 national champs and the most all americans in the 2008 D1 NCAAs. It is hands down the most consistent high school wrestling state in the nation.

  28. Left on Matt
    One year does not make a statement indicating that Ohio and Pennsylvania High Schools have the most NCAA Champions and All Americans true. The five schools that I surveyed do in fact contain a more reliable source. As the Hawkeye Media Guide does point out in the last 35 years, the only school other then Iowa (27), Oklahoma St. (7), Minnesota (4), Iowas St. (1), and Okalhoma (1) to win a national title was Arizona State. In the past 35 years Iowa has had 222 All-American, Oklahoma St. 183, Iowa St. 161, Okalhoma 123, and Minnesota 106. Those are the most of any programs in the country. Penn State has had 106 and Arizona St. has had 98. I find it hard to believe that Pennsylvania and Ohio have more champions and All-Americans over that time period.

  29. Kevin?? Do you know what your saying???? Teams winning a COLLEGE national title have NOTHING TO DO with a high school program…obvs. you have never put on a singlet. Cadet and Juniors decide on what state is the best…ITS A FACT!!!!!! ANOTHER fact…PENNSLYVANIA is the best…has produced the most national champs…most all-americans then any other state…find different and come up with it!!! Congrats on finding info. that has nothing to do with the question in doubt.

  30. Left by ???

    A review of NCAA Champions from Pennsylvania High Schools from 1929-2002, indicates that none of the Champions wrestled for Iowa, Oklahoma, Okalahoma State, or Minnesota. A listing on the internet of such champions (which appears to include Division II schools — Bloomsburg, East Stroudsburg, Pitt-Johnston, Cal-Bakersfiled 1991, Lock Haven, Clarion) and indicates that only Veryl Long in 1965; Nate Carr (1981, 1982, 1983) and Kevin Darkus (1984) wrestled for Iowa State.

  31. Ok, to clear up something about Vanderhyde and Owens “ducking” Kehrli at national duals…1st of all, Owens missed weight because JandW was stuck in an airport until the last minute and he couldn’t make weight. And JandW still beat Cornell with a weaker team! 2nd of all, Vanderhyde and Kehrli would have never wrestled because Olivet and Cornell never wrestled. National duals could have stopped competition to have this happen, but I dont think the Iowa wrestling fans would have put up with that. Next time you call out wrestlers for “ducking” make sure you know what your talking about!

  32. Where did all this talk about west coasters come after my post? the MIDWEST, as I stated IS NOT the west coast. Get it right.

  33. “During the last week, Cael and I talked numerous times and we had several in-depth and personal discussions about this decision. Those talks included me asking what, if anything, could we do to keep him at Iowa State. I also asked President (Gregory) Geoffroy, Bill Fennelly and Greg McDermott to reach out to Cael and they all did so. In the end, Cael said that he appreciated everything Iowa State and our fans had done for him but he believes winning a national championship will be easier at Penn State. He said the high school talent in Pennsylvania and surrounding states is the best in the country and the kids in that area grow up wanting to wrestle for the Nittany Lions. He also said their overall athletics department resources are the best in the country.”

    even cael knows pa is best

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